Cato Continues Kaffe's Work

[petslave]

Just to make sure the supplements are at their full strength, I always add them after I thaw the frozen food.  And I would include all of the supplements for the recipe for all the cats since they have good health benefits for healthy cats too.

[eclaire1981]

but how much to add when after thawing?because the amount of food is little, so how much to add individual?

[eclaire1981]

or how much to serparate give each day? my non crf cat dont wan eat those vitamins. and i afraid taurine is lost abit. i saw someway you all said add a dash of taurine on every meal? is thzt correct? 

[lesliek]

I add 500 mg a day to the cats food,& Remy my chi. About 1/2 as much for the other 2 dogs. Again if they don't like it with the added vitamins,just start with calcium & taurine. Add a new vitamin each week. If you add them gradually they do n't usually get finicky about the taste chamge. A few weeks without all the supplements won't hurt them,. If they are still eating any commercial canned or kibble they will be getting part of what is needed. Taurine is water soluble ,so you don't need to worry if they get too much. They will pee it out especially if CRF. Ultimately the diet needs to be fully balanced,but its ok if you you do it over a few weeks.

[Mandycat]

leslie,
     If eclaire's cats are not eating any commericial food as well as what she is cooking, shouldn't she be concerned about the Vit. B?  According to the thread on the food that was recalled for thiamine deficiency, cats can't go very long without it.  So, a couple of weeks without the B vitamins may not be good? 

[lesliek]

Yes if they aren't eating any kibble or canned,but she said they were last week.  If not add the B complex also to the taurine & calcium & add the others slowly.  A few weeks with less then the optimal amounts won't be a problem as long as she adds them in slowly. Most of us doing homecooked started with just the food & no or only a few supplements at atime & were fine,because they were still getting a little canned or kibble too.  As long as she gets all the vitamins & minerals in within a few weeks they should be ok. If necessary add them all to the cooked food before portioning. Even if you lose a little that way the taste change is more evenly distributed & won't bother them as much. It can't be any worse than than the too much or too little of each that occurs in commercial food as long as it gets evened out over about 4 weeks.

[eclaire1981]

i really don understand. If all vitamins are impt. how much should i giv in a day instead i put in the food. so they will get it. as salmon oil may be destroyrd after a week? so how much should i give foreach supplement, if i do not put any in the food

[bug]

eclaire,

If you just want to give your cats supplements, the easiest way is to buy a cat multivitamin. I use NuCat vitamins. According to my vet, if you are homecooking (cooked food) and not adding any vitamins into the food, you give them four per day, per cat. If you are feeding raw food and are including muscle meat, heart, liver, egg yolks, calcium, fish oil and extra vitamin E, they need two tablets per day, per cat. If you are feeding canned and you just want to make sure they get extra vitamins, give them one tablet per day, per cat. My cats thing they are a treat and like them very much. You can also crush the tablets into a powder and add it to homemade food after it has cooled. The problem with that, though, is you're not sure if all the cats have gotten an equal amount of the vitamin. They also have this vitamin in the form of a liquid. Here's the link for the supplement:

http://www.vetriscience.com/nucat.php

[eclaire1981]

so i need not add taurine and eggshell?

[petslave]

You definitely need to add taurine, eggshell and the B vitamins.  All three of those are critically important to them.  The salmon oil and Vit E are good for all cats, but especially CRF cats, so if I had to leave any out of the healthy cat's food, that would be the one.  But most commercial foods are adding them now because they are important.

I don't add supplements individually for each cat since dividing one capsule of powder or oil into equal amounts is very difficult.  You could just make separate batches for each cat and put what you need for that cat in.  I think some people do add the vitamins and freeze, so you should be able to freeze each batch with the supplements already added.  I've just heard freezing can damage B vitamins, so I add everything after thawing.

[bug]

so i need not add taurine and eggshell?

If you decide to give NuCat vitamins separate from their food (as treats) rather than make a vitamin mixture on your own, 4 tablets (what is recommended per cat), will give them 50mg of Calcium and 200 mg of Taurine. You would have to know how much phosphorus is in your homemade recipe in order to know how much calcium you need. The ratio should be 1.2:1 (Ca:P). Taurine minimum requirement is 500 mg/kg diet (dry matter). So the 200 mg of taurine that the vitamin provides, if you give 4 per day, per cat, should be fine in addition to the taurine content of the food. There is no toxic level of taurine, so including more in the recipe would also be fine.

ETA: Cato's response on the next page accounts for CRF cats -- sorry, I didn't take that into consideration in calculating calcium.

[Cato]

so i need not add taurine and eggshell?

Your cat is a CRF cat.  The phosphorus in meats (chicken, fish, beef, pork, etc) is always much much higher than the calcium content.  You need to add eggshell as the recipe calls for, which is balanced out to make a calcium-to-phos ratio of 1.3:1.  Please don't mess this up.

[Cato]

For those of you who want to follow and make any of the recipes in this thread, you need to know that you cannot just toss out one ingredient or supplement and think it will be OK - your ct may not immediately die from it, but in the long run, if the cat keeps missing key nutrients, the cat will suffer ill health.  Cats are obligate carnivores.  I think we all understand that.  As obligate carnivores, there are key nutrients that they cannot manufacture by their own body's metabolic process.  A good example is pre-formed Vitamin A and Taurine.  The cat can get these important nutrients only through what he eats, either in the food itself or in the supplements one gives.  A cat's diet must also have a BALANCED calcium to phosphorus ratio.  For a young healthy cat, one or two unbalanced cal-phos meal is OK and will do no harm.  BUT if your cat's kidneys are compromised as in CRF/CRI, you CANNOT ignore the calcium to phosphorus ratio!  CANNOT.  Calcium binds to excess phosphorus in the diet and if there isn't enough calcium to do that, the cat's kidneys go on over-drive trying to rid itself of excess unbound phosphorus, or the cat's own body will mobilize calcium sources from within - usually from its onw bones.  AND if the cat is a CRF cat, like your cat, Eclaire, the cat will CRASH. Eclaire, I cannot stress this enough. If you insist on leaving out the eggshell and taurine from your home made meal, I want EVERYONE to know that I have warned you of the consequences. 

[eclaire1981]

Hi,

my 2 cats, 1 is crf are doing well with the food and added supplements. So for easy option, i never intend not to add if allow. my one old cat is the one who do not want to eat homemade with added supplements so im finding other alternative hard to convert him without sacrificing any vitamin defiency and would like to double confirm before i did any things wrong to harm my precious. I had many questions as i know doing homemade need be very careful. But some of my concerns are not cleared yet so i really need help. I saw before in several of post that extra taurine can be added as a dash or pinch on every meal if any taurine is destroyed in freezing . right? as i did it now on every meal to ensure my cat have enough taurine, as it is very impt. I also saw salmon oil will be stale-useless after some day when freezing? so i prefer to give individually on their first meal to ensure they had the sufficient amount each day. So i would like to know for each cat, how much is to be given? and out of wanting to know more. how much taurine should actually a cat should have, as i really worried they may not get enough due to my ignorant in future when they have problems. My 2 cats are adapting well to the food, except im worried the vitamin for salmon oil and taurine will be destroyed so giving serparately for salmon oil make me not so worried, but if it fine to add in food, for convenience , it even better.

FOr my old cat who do not want to eat. commercial food for him is quite high phos, so i would like convert him. But he only eat the food if it is not added any stuff, for eg, eggshell, taurine, and the rest of vitamins. so i can add to his commercial meal on first day? or i can add taurine and calcium only to homemade only. then rest of vitamain, i add to commercial food. I wanted to have advise is this workable? and how much to giv them for the rest of vitamin since cato giv serparately.

Sorry for so many questions which i think everyone is confused about my questions.

[bug]

Hi eclaire,

This document might help you with some of the recommended amounts of vitamins a cat needs daily:

http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/cat_nutrition_final.pdf

The document doesn't specify how much taurine a cat needs every day, but the online literature estimates their need to be at least 30 mg/kg of bodyweight per day, so if your cat weighs 6.5 kg, he will need a minimum of 195 mg taurine per day.